Average to Savage
Average to Savage

Episode · 1 year ago

Miles Witt Boyer | Average to Savage EP138

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This is the one hundred and thirty-eighth episode of the Average to Savage podcast featuring one of the world's best wedding photographers Miles Witt Boyer. Paul Guarino talked with Miles Witt Boyer discussing how we met, why he became a wedding photographer, and how he operates running his own business. 

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This podcast interview with Miles Witt Boyer was originally recorded on September 9, 2021

...this is the average to Savage podcast with paul Guerrino. Everyone in anyone athletes celebs and much more. Today's episode is brought to you by b USr dot com, you know, everyone always asks me where they should bet and now I got a solution for them. The U. S. R. Dot com slash paul. You deposit $100 they'll match your $100 in free bets. So you basically get $200 Go check it out, be USr dot com slash paul top. Everybody welcome back to another episode of the Average Savage podcast. Our special guest today is photographer Miles wit Boyer. A little background. Usually I don't do this, but I'll give a little background because you know, things randomly happened in this interview randomly happened. I was at a wedding last week. Everybody knows I've been to a lot of weddings this summer and you were the photographer and I knew Michael Massoni, he flew you out from Arkansas and I was confused why, but then I figured out why once you were there, I understood the mission and I understood why after seeing you and, and I think, you know, obviously, I think people's a lot of people's photography, you know, could stick out and things like that. But I think it was obviously like your personality and things like that. Um, that set you apart probably from other photographers. Dude that's like the greatest intro ever. Can I just get that little piece of recording sent over to me so I can use that for like, I don't know, everyone's testimony for everything from now on. If that's uh, if that's good. Yeah, Dude, I'm stoked to hang with you. It was a first off, it was a good wedding, secondly, don't expose the long con people fly me all over the world for, for weddings man. So we want people to assume that it's actually worth the investment even though, you know, come on. Like, yeah, I just get paid to party. Yeah, for sure. Well, you know, you know, being from Connecticut, you know, close to new york. Like I would just think like, you know, it would be easy to find someone around, you know what, a lot of my, I mean, I actually moved to Arkansas from new york. So a lot of my, a lot of my good friends are still, you know, close to the city and there's definitely a lot of talent. But um, you know, it really is the same. Like across almost all creative industries, people are leaving the coasts like crazy. It's just too expensive to do life. Like none of us, none of us got into, none of us got into wedding photography so that we could, You know, like grind out 16, 18 hour days. Like we, we all just want to chill and have fun and make enough money to like see the world, right? So yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean definitely during corona, a lot of people from new york moved to Connecticut. So it's crazy. Uh, florida. All my clients live in florida. No, like everybody, everybody's like, oh, you don't have to wear a mask down there. There's no virus in florida. Who knew? Oh my God, that's another, that's all another conversation. That's okay. Part two, we're coming back for part two, man. I told you I do a lot of podcasts were just, I'm just gonna talk in circles, we're going to make this. Maybe we should just do a podcast. I don't know. Maybe together bullshit. I can be average and you can be savaged. There you go. All right, well, let's just go back in time. How, how did you get started with photography? There's a, there's a golden question. Um, that's the one that, that everybody asks and I should have a great answer. And I just never do. Uh, when I was a, uh, I took a job, my first job that I ever took, I was, I was 15 years old. I worked as a darkroom technician and carrying gear for a, for a wedding photographer. Um, and I did that like all the way through high school for just long enough for me to like swear out loud that I would never shoot weddings. Ever. Um, actually, my, my senior thesis, uh, in art school was a paper written about how wedding photography was killing the industry. Like it was, it was the thing that was like pulling the soul out of the photo industry. Um, but yeah, so I mean, I've, I've been, I've been working, you know, at least in some capacity in this field since I was a kid uh and kind of danced around a lot man, I worked for a whitewater rafting...

...company for a while as a, like a tourist photographer, which was kind of dope, I just kayaked all day and then I worked for a rock climbing company for a little while doing basically the same thing, uh moved to new york and worked for a fashion uh like a modeling agency essentially, and shot a couple of big campaigns and and kind of got my name uh sort of on the board just enough for me to realize like that's not what I wanted my life to look like. Um and then just coincidentally about the same time I met my wife uh and um she was in Arkansas girl with this like super cute southern drawl and this like kind of hot swag for college football and slow living and just like that's what she wanted out of life and there was something really attractive about it, so she was right, she said, come come to Arkansas, it's the greatest place in the country to own a small business and uh She's not wrong and it's a it's a great, like it's definitely a great place to be. So, so that there you go, there's there's 15 years of career in 30 seconds. There you go. Yeah, I mean, I've never been in Arkansas, so I guess I gotta check it out one day. But um, how did you, how did you, uh, I know. Where did you, where did you grow up? Uh New Mexico actually in the mountain in the mountains in Northern New Mexico. I was just a, just a ski kid. Um, my dad's an archaeologist or was, I guess an archaeologist. My mom was an art teacher. So I just sort of grew up like artsy and you don't kind of obsessed with uh, with sports. And so that, that was the, the only like outlet for me was I need a place where I can play soccer and learned photography. That was, that's kind of, you know, life goals. And then I grew up and I ditched sock. Well, I didn't ditch soccer. I just blew out both my knees. Yeah. Gotcha. And then, so you went to, you said you went to art school? So it, was that like a college or like what is that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I went to, so yeah, I went to a, like a private, um, it's, it really is just a liberal arts university called john Brown University. It's a killer school, but it's one of the, it's one of the better photography programs in the country. Um, and uh, like I said, that was the big thing for me was find a school that, that I could play soccer at and, and uh, that, you know, I would walk away. There's no longevity and being a soccer player, that's just not a thing. So then I could walk away with a great art degree and uh, that, that happened, I mean, the soccer didn't last long, like I mentioned, I blew my new pretty quick, but um, but I was kind of teed up to have a great career because I went to a, you know, a great program. So, Um, and a lot of my employees, a lot of guys that worked for me over the last 10 years have also come out of that program. I was a professor there for a little while. So, um, so I, I kind of recruited my own staff for a little while, right out of school. So yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. So all right. So do you think being a photographer, being like creative, like, do you think college was necessary, man? I want to say yes, because I want to believe in in that system. And yeah, I read a statistic the other day, it was like a Wall Street Journal um, report. So you'd think at least relatively legit that um, the stats of guys going to college right now, like the lowest they've been in like the last 100 years or something like that. Like, it's just not happening anymore. And I want to believe that the idea of like going to a professional school is a really valuable thing. I also want to believe that that going to an art school where you're surrounded by um you know, people that can pour into you creatively and try and and uh and and inspire you to kind of like expand your own ability is also a good thing, but the truth of the matter is I've been kind of behind that curtain and there's a lot of politics, there's a lot of money involved, there's a lot of decisions that are being made that aren't necessarily in the student's best interest and uh you know, they're...

...kind of in the interest of prolonging the program or expanding the program or whatever. So, you know, short answer. No, I really don't. I think in this day and age you can probably uh in a creative field you can probably forgo college if you're ambitious enough to teach yourself what you would have learned. Um But I will all second that answer by saying, I have met very few people in my career that are ambitious enough or disciplined enough to teach themselves much of anything except for a lot of bad habits. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean I agree with you to just because like I go back and forth with, because I just think about all the time, like as I got older, I feel like it's just less and less like valuable, I guess to me that I went besides like the networking aspect and um and like you said, like, I think college should be instead of the four, I think they should get rid of the four year and just do like a two year and whatever your major is because the first two years usually just prereqs and things like that. Yeah, and you're, you're basically learning things. I mean, here's the problem is there's no standardized level of like truly standardized level of what what you should have learned in high school and so you spend the first two years trying to get everybody on a level playing field and uh and all that really does is to me, what I've noticed is that it takes the top end of the class and brings them down and it gives the bottom end of the class of chance to rise up and you know, it's not like there's a discount on those two years. So um yeah, I kind of agree with you. I think it's it's at some point you've got to ask people to just sort of like dive in and make a decision for what their life is gonna look like. But I mean, you've only got to be around people our age for five minutes to realize that most people. And I mean that genuinely, I think most people make it all the way through their adult life, just reacting to whatever circumstances are around them having no idea what they want their life to look like and they wake up at retirement age and realize that, you know, at best they have saved enough money to retire, but their entire adult life is behind them. So yeah, for sure, maybe one day you'll open up your own school for photography. No, no man, come on, don't put that on me. Uh, no, we, you know, I do a lot of training, so I do a lot of teaching and mentoring and um, I speak at conferences kind of all over the country and um, you know, sort of blessed at this point to have enough of a reach because of my endorsements and some awards and stuff that we've won, that for whatever reason people will listen. And so I, uh, you know, while that wave is in front of, I feel like kind of have the responsibility to say the right things. So, so tell all right, so tell me what you, when your first wedding was that you did, and then tell me like what your big break was and like, you got to like quit your job and start your own business. Oh yeah. So first wedding, this is a funny story and I was The first wedding that I shot, I was 16 years old. I worked for a photographer named Jill cave in and then I did not want to be at a wedding. I had no interest to. But um, but like this is how every good man story starts to the girl that I was crushing on hard uh, was, was also like, was an assistant for her and so I get this call that's like, hey, we're gonna go to this wedding in santa fe, I could use a second assistant and uh, like this girl will be there and so I'm like, okay. And then she tells me which this, I mean, I don't, I'm not gonna sell how old I am, but this was, You know, like pre-2000, right? So then she tells me that she's going to pay me $20 an hour on top of that and I'm like, I'm done. Like, yeah, I could spend all day with with this girl and getting paid for it. Like, let's go. Um and, and I never even saw my photos from that wedding. I guarantee they were horrible. I was definitely not focused on what I should have been. Um honestly, I mean that was...

...a circus of of a decision. But anyway, so between there and, you know, the end of college though, there was like a handful of weddings mostly for friends or like people that really couldn't afford an actual photographer and we're willing to take a risk on this like cocky photo student. That was like, yeah, how hard could that be? Um that was really high developed that opinion on the fact that it's like, man, this is trash, like wedding photography is, is horrible. Uh and, and then after college, um, you know, I, I mentioned there's some stuff kind of moved to new york kind of moved around and my wife, Um, but in 2009 we decided like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna kind of start this company and, and kind of dive in and I can do this for real. And um, it took me probably three years realistically of just sort of floating on my personality. I don't know how to say that, it's just true. Like I just was like floating on the fact that like, I could just sort of charm people and make them happy and, and the photography needed to catch up like the art, the actual work needed to catch up with the fact that I was like good at talking people into hiring me, But by 2012, we, we had, we kinda started to sort of take over this area a little bit and regionally, people kind of knew the name and um, you know, the brand started growing and uh, and so I was getting some exposure there and, and that's when, uh, ironically a kid, you not like the wedding that you and I just met at last week was a down line from a wedding that I shot in. Uh, I think it was 2,011, maybe 10 or 11. I shot a wedding in Vermont that was like a total fluke, they hired me, I was in way over my head, but I was like, yeah, I mean, let's go, it's beautiful, absolutely beautiful wedding and we ended up getting the cover of, of new England weddings magazine from that and everything just sort of blew up from there man, once you, once you get a couple of good covers like life changes rapidly and so Yeah, so that that down line kind of clientele started and what's wild is here we are 10 or 12 years later or whatever, I can literally trace the wedding that you and I were at last weekend to that couple. Like I I can see that that line all the way down and every couple that kind of sat in a way and so man, we've been to Gosh Canada and Iceland and Turks and Caicos and napa and everywhere with that group of people just with that line of people kind of all over the world now, so Yeah. Yeah, that's crazy. I mean they always say still no matter what the word of mouth is still the best referrals, who cares about everything I do that. The other thing is like if you get referrals from somebody else, you've got to sell them all over again. Yeah. Um but man, when somebody, when somebody tells you that you can trust somebody else, like you want to believe in them, so I just haven't messed it up yet. Yeah, I don't know if you even knew um after the, after the pictures at the whatever you want to call the ocean spot, um, max are the kid on the jet ski came up to max, It was like, I'm doing my first wedding tomorrow. Like johnny advice. No, that's awesome. So I was like, that's like a full like circle thing when you were just saying all that stuff and I was just like, it was kind of crazy because like the kid just came up and I wanted mike to get on the jet ski and take some pictures headed to man. I just didn't want to play so hard. Like we kind of kind of sugar because he had, he had the other suit. So I just have to, I just have to watch my liability a little bit on that, right? Like, you know if it's my idea and the guy drowns, you know, who's liable for that decision. But dude, that's awesome. You know what's interesting actually, what that place that we're at glen, what's that? Glen island, like an island park, something like that. Um, what's really interesting is I posted an instagram story like right at sunset um, of me walking back to the shuttle to catch you guys to catch up with the guys when you guys were all smoking the cigars behind the shuttle and uh, And a...

...photographer that has been following me for like, I don't know, five or 6 years. Um, wrote me, he was on the other end of the park shooting a wedding at the same time. I've never met him. I've never, I mean he's written back and forth to me a few times, but he was like, he was there at the same time. It's just such a, like this industry is so much smaller than you think it is. I feel like every, every industry like, you know, there's 10 million people in everything that you do and then by the time you elevate to a point where something is actually valuable about it, there's very few people that actually kind of hanging in those in those spaces. So the world is definitely small. I'm sure, I'm sure there's probably somebody's wedding that you did that and possibly know or something like that, guaranteed. Crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. So yeah. Dude, I like, I don't know. I just, I want to part two of this thing when we launch our own podcast. I want to know your story, man. I want to hear the whole thing. Like I know you give him me in speech. I've heard that now. Oh God, that was solid. I Gave Myself A six. That was, I mean, I give you a 62, but it's, I don't know if you have a 10. Like, I don't know. You know what I mean? I feel like six is topped out. So testing that just resting. That's not good. No, I'm just playing. It was solid. It was really good. Like all right. So this is what the backstory of that was lay through his other best men. Uh, we agreed to cut out stuff and he didn't cut out anything. But I could out a lot. What a punk man. I'll click this incentive to That's right. That's right. Send this over and be like, yeah, I mean he held you back. It was there's no doubt there. Oh dude, no, I'm serious. I get to hear a lot of speeches and People, a lot of people ask me for like my advice on that. Just because I've, you know, I've heard 500 speeches now or whatever. And and typically I tell people that are like, you know, just eliminate first things first, eliminate inside jokes. They're dumb. Nobody even the people that they're meant to be told to. Nobody laughs at him. So like eliminate the inside jokes and then uh, you know, don't spend the whole time just poking fun at the dude. Like it's his day. Like let him let him shine a little bit. It's okay to like, you don't have to flirt with them to like raise them up a little bit and kind of give him some credit. And then you did that. Like it was solid. It was it was a good speech all the way around and you know what's even more important than the actual speech I took. Really dope pictures are you giving it? And so that's nobody remembers these. Just gonna remember the pictures good. I could post the pictures and the video done. And then you can, but then you can say to everybody, this is the world we live in. You can just caption it with, I gave the best speech ever. Height me. Uh huh. Yeah, for sure. For sure. No. And I just like, uh, like my whole thing and just life is just being real. Like I didn't want to talk like, you know, like it's an essay for him. Like I just want to talk regular like how I talk and that's what that's what I did. Um even though it's short, but whatever. And uh, so yeah. And then just going back to weddings in general. Like I know. So, how many, how many weddings have you have you shot total? You think? I never know how to I don't know. I don't know. But we have people that are like, how do you not have over Account over 200? Oh yeah. Over 500. All right. Yeah, a lot. Like a lot. Have You been in all 50 states? 42, states. And uh, and I think 16 countries, something like that. Um Yeah, a lot, man. Like We had one, we had one season where we did 19 states, uh, in one season. Like it's it's nuts. I've actually peeled back a little bit on the travel over the course the last few years, even before Covid just because my kids are like, my kids are getting older and uh, and dude, it sucks to miss like soccer practices and games and um, I think the hardest thing about being a creative in that...

...situation is like, I want to be so present, but I'm so distracted. So yeah, we've pulled back a little bit, but for a while there, it was like full steam ahead on like, you know, have camera will travel. I never did the like weird van life thing. That's a thing right now. And I've never been a five, I'm too boozy for that. I'm like, man, I need a hot shower and a really solid dinner and a good whiskey or I'm not there. But yeah, for sure. Like what, what's like your average, like, what's your goal in the beginning of the season to like, how many like weddings you want to do or Like capital 25, which is still, um, you know, a lot more than most people in the industry will shoot. I think we've just gotten more efficient. It doesn't um, It doesn't slow me down. I did one season, I did 42 weddings and, and uh, sorry, sorry. There are 44 weddings And that was 2016 and it was just, that was just way too much. I like, I couldn't keep up and the editing load alone was too much and I refused this to outsource that stuff. That's, that's pretty common, but um, I want to keep it all in house and do it all right, so, So yeah, I cap it at 25 now and every time, You know, we get an inquiry beyond that, somebody in my team takes it. And and uh so I uh 2019, we had 76 weddings as a company Um that I, you know, I oversee it all, but only 25 of them were mine. So, yeah. Actually, what about, like, what happens when, like, one of your friends is getting married? Like, do you do it? Or like, you get your your other people do? Uh I try, it's sort of case by case. Um It sort of depends on what that friendship looks like, and if I if I can sense any, like, yeah, any weakness there. Um this is an oddly intimate relationship that you end up building, and it's not like I sit around and watch Nicholas sparks movies, man, like, I'm not like this weird diehard romantic. Um it's a business, you know, like, I I love my job, I love being a creative, but like, I don't I didn't get into this so that I could, like make shadow puppets of hearts on the wall. So, so, a lot of times my my close friends will call because they know that they're going to get, like, a very real experience out of me, but that doesn't mean they're getting a discount because the work is the same kind of, no matter what, And so I kind of deter a lot of friends from hiring me if if at all possible. Uh one for lack of a better way to put it. Dude, I'm I'm kind of expensive and I don't know if I would pay for me. I don't know if can I say that? I'm just getting that's not true. I totally would. But um but to honestly, I don't know, I don't want to muddy the water with with good friends. So what I end up telling everybody is like, um, you know, mike and Christina being a perfect example, all of my clients end up becoming friends, but I don't love it when life happens the other way around. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, I was more so saying like of you missing the wedding technically because you'll be working. Yeah, I miss them all the time. No, no. I mean like, so it's your friends wet. So, I'm saying, all right, say it. Your good friend, right? And they want to hire you to do their wedding, but you're like, no, like, you're my good friend. Like, I want to beat like I want to enjoy it and be there and not work it. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, that happen It. No, no, because uh I mean, here's if this says anything, I've only been a groomsman once in the last 10 years if I'm gonna be at the wedding, I want to, I want to hold the camera. Um and that's not me being like overly confident or cocky. It's just me saying like, like I mentioned a few minutes ago, there's this is a fairly narrow field of people that do it kinda at this level and there's a lot of people that do it a lot better than I do. I mean, don't get me wrong, like, like there's some photographers out there that just blow my mind. Um But there it's, there's not a lot of like, you know, uncle bob photographers on the corner out there that are, that are gonna outshoot me.

And so, you know, if I'm gonna be there, whether I'm paid or not, if I'm gonna be there, I'd love to be the guy that's, you know, helping capture and control and make sure that those memories and and all of that is safe. But I have missed a lot of friends weddings because they hired another photographer to invite me to come to their wedding and then I had an opportunity to, you know, shoot a big wedding elsewhere. And it's like, well, I mean, it's hard to say no to guaranteed income so that I can spend money to go to, you know what I mean? So yeah, for sure you jaded by it too, man. It's like, I feel like if I sat, I'll put it this way, I feel like if I sat courtside every single game like every game and then somebody were to try and charge me to go see another team play that I didn't love as much. I'd be like, uh you know, I'm, I'm good actually. I'm okay. I mean, I get like, I get V. I. P. At every wedding I eat, I eat first, I dance first. I'd show with a couple back, you know, like, so to be a guest for me sometimes is uh like from a personal perspective, I love to support them, but it's not as much fun. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. Like, yeah, being the groomsman thing. Like I was in three this year and I'm like, at this point I'm retired. Call it. He pulled the hat trick and he's done. Yeah. Like that was, that was just too much, too much stuff. That was crazy. But I was so, I went to five weddings and that was like, because I only probably been like as an adult, I'm saying I've only been so like probably two or three And then going to five and 1 basically two months. I was just like, wow, this is like nuts. Yeah. I went to five last month man at your job. It is, it is definitely my job. So yeah, getting to that. Like, what? All right. You got to tell me like, what? What has been like, give me your like your top, I don't know, three or 5, like best ones are like craziest ones. Um and then for me, this is this is a weird weird question to answer because so much about it. I've been doing it for so long, So much about it is about the the client like the relationship that I have with them. Yeah and so I mean I've I've seen some wild things like some absolutely beautiful you know like million dollar weddings in the, that a weird farm in Vermont that jay Z and Beyonce were staying out at the same time right? Like um And and we did did 13 weeks ago now. Um That was like you know million dollar wedding at a billion dollar art museum right? Like and the first look happened, I kid you not the first look happened like next to an Andy Warhol. Um I mean like just nuts, absolutely nuts, stuff like that, but none of that. I'll say this like none of that to me doesn't really add value to like whether or not I enjoy it or whether or not I feel creative or inspired by it. Um You know I did a wedding uh just a few years ago in Iceland for a good friend of mine, he was my trainer actually at the time after my last knee surgery he kind of like nursed me back to health and so you so you do have good friends. Yeah I've got like one. but he was a trainer so we like we had that we already had that relationship like I was his client and then he was mine. And anyway, Like that, that was, that was just insane. That was epic. Like 80 mile an hour winds and blowing waterfalls and like Some of the craziest thing I've ever seen um or I did a wedding uh in I think 2017 at the base of an active volcano in Guatemala. Um So do the scale is just all over the board whether or not it's like me dancing with 1000 people in new york or me, you know, like walking hand in hand with my wife up the side of a mountain in Canada with just like two people. Um...

But do I, I've sort of seen it all at this point and I love, I will tell you what I love. Like I love the, I love the chill. Like the real, I love the real the couples that are just, man, they're just smitten and and they're cheesy and they're just like dripping with bad love poems and like they're just here. They're here for it, right? And they're just in this time in their life that's like, you know, let's just go right now, let's get out of here and let's go get married when I, when I had the opportunity to be alongside that, it's uh it's so much more fun for me to say like, hey, I don't care that it's raining, Let's go get wet or um you know, whatever your dress got dirty. Who cares? Like the only reason you even wanted the white dress was so he'd think you were pretty. So the fact that it's a little dirty on the back doesn't matter. Let's go. So yeah, for sure. What about have you have you done any like famous people's weddings? I have, but I don't kiss and tell man. Um I know, I mean off the air. Now. I've got I've got I've got a few ideas and stuff like that. But yeah, I've shot some we've got some some athlete weddings and some, you know more well known people. Um some actors and but uh yeah, not I mean not not a ton. That's again, that's not really the demographic that I go after. I've got a couple of friends in southern California that like that's what they shoot, you know um like you know when Mariah gets married for the 14th time or whatever. I know who she's you know, she's gonna I'm just kidding. So I'm sorry Maria, but I mean that's just not me. I won't get that call. I keep waiting like, you know, ali love got engaged from pollution and I was like, come on, I mean I I ride alongside you all the time, but she never called. I don't know Bieber never called either. No matter how many times I can refer you to some people, but there you go, dude. All right. Let's go. Like I actually random fact, I actually did uh some social media work for a guy that shoots. And he lives in bora bora. And he's a photographer. And like the same same thing when I was like, and he told me all these like dope people he shot and I was like, oh you guys like semi those and like we could post them. It'll be dope for like social media. And he's just like, oh yeah, like, you know, like a majority of them signed to India so we can't post them. Yeah, it doesn't yeah, it doesn't it doesn't happen like that. I mean typically the the it's an interesting thing because like in the just sort of the normal world, right? Like, like our life um you know the you can like convince the bride that the value is in like more photographers, more videographers like let's add production, let's add hours in in those weddings. It's funny. They're like, hey, can you show up for four hours completely by yourself. You know, leave without saying bye and never tell anybody that you took these pictures. And it's it's a totally different. I mean it's a different world altogether, but I don't believe you got hired before and they're like, just don't talk to us at all. Just take pictures. No, no, not so much that I mean because I usually like I wouldn't take that wedding. Like yeah, I would say no to that couple. It doesn't matter who they are. I don't know if if Bieber called, I'd probably go for it, look at me. But now dude, I mean I have been in situations for sure where it's like, hey, You know, this is a very intimate wedding, very affluent couple. There's only like 25 people invited and there's one pink elephant in the room and he's holding a camera right? So it's sort of like, you know, kind of get in, do the best job you can to sort of blend in. But then, you know, like when you feel like you've got, you've got a really good handle of the photos, feel free to just sort of duck out when you're ready. Yeah, that's fine too. It's not my wedding. I mean, I just try not to go into these things with a ton of ego if I'm honest. Like I want the people to feel like they hired somebody that's gonna take care of them and love on them and man, whatever that looks like. Whether that's us dancing in a big wild what that place was called, The surf club that had, there was such a, that's like false advertising man, you walk in and it's...

...like a giant baby grand piano and dual staircases. It was like the buddhist, I did not expect that. I was thinking like Tiki, I don't know, I thought we'd all be taking shots of tequila off. I didn't know, I knew it was nice. I just didn't know why the name was that name. It didn't make sense. I didn't either, especially that it's in a bay and there's not even like a ripple. So it was, it was an interesting thing. The place was really cool though. So like, you know, surf club, I will come back. I will be more prepared next time though. Um but it was, I mean it was beautiful. It was absolutely beautiful. But, but that's like a perfect example of, you know, I end up in these like ballrooms sometimes that like, I just didn't expect it. I because every picture that you see on their website is like outside and that beautiful space down by the beach. So I was thinking that and then we walk in and I'm like this giant chandeliers and it's in the ballroom. I'm like, all right, curve ball, you know, set up some lighting and let's go. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's why. And just like going back to like networking things like that. That's how we got connected to the wedding. So I'm sure you made like so many connections just from going like not just the bride and groom and things like that and that's why when I was just talking about the bora bora thing and that's where they actually went for their honeymoon. Mike Christina and then I was like, you know, if you need a photographer out there. I actually know a guy and he like, he thought I was kidding and I was just like, no dude, I actually like, noah, photographer out there, that's super cool. And he really should connect him. That'd be really fun. I mean I asked, he didn't, we didn't do it. He's probably so he's probably booked right now. Well then again, but I don't know because corona, everyone's like not, you know, everything is not open. So it could still happen. That's, that's really neat though. Yeah, I mean that's a big deal to me. You, you got to see that firsthand. I want to make sure when we're at a wedding that um, you know, that everybody, you know, maybe not like the extended guests. I can only like spread ourselves so thin, right? But that everybody that's in the wedding party, all the family, everybody feels like they have have access to us as photographers to capture what, what needs to be captured. And so I spent a lot of time just hanging out with the groomsmen and hanging out with the bridesmaids and, and you know, there's a lot of time you've got to see this, a lot of time spent with me just setting the camera down and uh, it takes a lot of discipline for a lot of photographers to, to do that because they're perpetually afraid they're going to miss something. But it's like, well, there's a lot of tax, there's a lot of, there's a lot of wisdom and saying like, you know, hey, it would be better for a couple to have like amazing memories and potentially not have a picture of that then to go through an entire day where all they did all day long was just go from like photo shoot to photo shoot, you know? So yeah, I'm sure you will know this already. But like, like I've even seen it just like, even like when I post content, like you say it's like an actual, there's a photo shoot or something and like the Gara have and stuff like that. But then like, yeah, it gets good engagement whatever. But then I do like behind the scenes thing and that engagements like way better and like everyone like likes to see like that stuff more. Yeah, double Yeah. There's something really valuable about being able to see how things are created and, and just be able to experience that. So like you're like I said, you're a perfect example of that. I mean it's a big deal to me to take time to just to like connect and get to know the people at the wedding and uh, and find out, you know, like who is this dude that's giving the speech and, and why? Right? Like why him? Uh, it turns out you were just hired from craig's list pretty much the day before the way at this point at this point, like I'm like a wedding crasher. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah 55 and one summer. Yeah, I mean, you should probably be billing for this. I actually think you should probably invoice mike and Christine and just see if they'll pay. I should. But since he's like almost a doctor, he'll build me for my web MD questions, but don't really, don't send those over to him. You can't trust that. Almost a doctor man, like at least wait until he gets graduates. Um Yeah. And then what about, what advice would you give to like a young photographer coming up?...

Oh man, bail. Mhm Now, uh man, I, I I'll say this like the older I get, the more I realized that um man, the human body is just, it's just like fascinating. Anything that we do in repetition, it doesn't matter what it is. Just literally anything that we do in repetition. We we get good at. Um So if if you win all the time, if all you do is win, you get good at winning, man. And if you're self deprecating or you stand in your own way, uh you get good at doubting yourself. And if you think you're going to grab a camera and roll out and take pictures that not only you're stoked about, but other people are going to pay a lot of money for, but not practice. Then somebody that's probably half as talented as you, but but more committed to to just the the art of practice will pass you in a hurry. Uh And so I mean that that's where I would say we have a lot of people because of my, my association with fuji film and some of the teams that I'm on, social teams that I'm on, a lot of people will write me, you know, a year or two years another career and say like, hey, how do I get endorsed, helping me? You just got to get better work. I mean, you just have to, you just, you've got to work more. So I've shot probably on average somewhere in the realm of 4-6000 photos a week Every week for over 10 years. So I mean, dude, if I wasn't taking beautiful photos at that point, I'm like a massive failure. Alright. Like, man, I really suck if you don't, if you don't get good at it by then. So I think that success is often a byproduct of just ambition and uh and practice. Um So that's that's what I would tell. I mean, not just photographers, I'd tell anybody, you know, like if you don't want to miss free throws, then stop missing them. Like that's, you know, that like there's the like the key to life if you want more money in your checking account, then stop spending it, like get better at making it. Yeah, no, for sure. And then like even I check out your website too, so I think like possibly if this is correct, like on the dates was the the actual weddings of the, I think it was like blogs, you kind of like post, is that what it is? Yeah, I don't post every every wedding doesn't get blog. Um I understand the date, the date of it was from the wedding, the actual wedding date. Is that? No, no, it's just the date that I posted that I that I blog about it because there's a lot of blogs in there as well about that are like tips and tricks and stuff for photographers or whatever, that's about the complementary again, but I guess I can't, no, uh we'll go for it, I'll take it and then I'll just, I'll just retract my last comment Uh because I thought, I thought those were the ones that like, so say it was said like September one, I was thinking that wedding happened September one. I was like, well you got it done already in that time frame. Oh no, I I am like, I'm, you know, on my other screen right now, I'm looking at um I'm looking at a wedding that was three weeks ago and it will be done by tomorrow. Um Yeah, so we, we usually run under a month. I mean that's a that's a big problem with our industry right now as photographers just over commit themselves um and they take six or eight months to get stuff out, you know? Um and uh yeah, you need to, we always laugh. I'm like I uh there's no way I'm gonna get your photos back to you before, before your first fight but I hope I can get them back to you before your second, you know? So you gotta power through that first fight but by the time you're on that second fight, hopefully you have some pictures to look at. Yeah for sure. And then yeah what like what is it like?...

Because I know uh with computers and stuff like what is it like for you like equipment wise and like just getting stuff uh like what programs do you use and things like that. Because I know like even like yesterday I use Dropbox and it stopped letting me use shared links for some reason because the bandwidth and I was like what is this? I was like I've never seen this before. Yeah. No way man. Uh So so you know I'll preface that the only like nerd talk thing I'm gonna say is um you know, I'm shooting the absolute most tech advanced camera ever ever released um is a fujifilm large format digital Um called the g. f. x. 100 of the 100 as we shoot both of them. And uh you know, each individual file is over 100 megabytes before it's edited. Um And so you know when we're delivering 1000 files to to a client you're looking at um you know dozens of gigs of of uploaded and downloadable material And the backups alone, you know, are typically for a wedding or somewhere in the realm of 700-800 GB. So we're pushing close to a terabyte per wedding. Um so by the time I I get these things edited down, you know, the the importance of efficiency of like a clean workflow, that means that I never lose anything. I don't misplace anything I can understand and you know, easily get get to weddings from 2009 or 10 and you know, and still get to the files if I needed them for some reason that that's the critical piece. So so we're using light room for the vast majority of the editing work. Um And uh and then Photoshop and a program a plug in program called luminary Ai is doing a lot of the processing work for me. All of it is done by hand though. Like everything is, you know, there's no bulk processing. So every image is touched, Edited individually, one at a time. And and it takes a long time. It's a big commitment for each wedding. It's one reason why I limit the number of weddings that I take. So I can kind of do it right. Um But then we have a server program um The one that we're using right now is actually called zen folio And I've got 780,000 files that I've delivered over the last 12 years now um organized in there and it's, it's like dropbox on steroids, but it's a lot prettier. Um So it's a much easier way to catalog organize everything, you know, send individual links and all that type of stuff. But we're about to move over. I think I just had a really cool call the day before yesterday actually. I think I want to be signing on as an ambassador for a new company called pick time. Um And it's a similar, similar thing. It's just a cleaner user interface and um there's a, there's a number of them out there. But yeah, I mean if you're just trying to deliver a few photos here and their dropbox or google drive or whatever work. But you're gonna end up with more errors than I think you end up success rates because that's just for whatever reason. It's like it Any time you're over like 25 or maybe 50 files, it's like they just can't hang the download the bit rates, just can't can't hold and your bandwidth just get sucked up and it dies. You know, so for sure. Um Last photography question, what's what's your take on water marks. Ah You want me to be like real candid, can I get like, can I get real blunt? This is average is average. This is unfiltered. Let's go, okay. If I were to go and buy my wife, let's use it that way. Um You know, pick your designer, I don't care. Uh, if I were to go drop 10 grand on some designer dress and it had a logo on it. I would be pissed. Yeah. My, my thought on a watermark is this if you are so desperate for people to know that you shot that picture, you probably didn't do a good enough job taking it on the flip side of that. What's that? I said bars. Yeah. So on the flip side...

...of that, if you can take an image that even if you handed somebody the same light, the same camera, the same setup, the same gear and they couldn't recreate it. They couldn't figure you out. Then there are left asking who the hell took this picture And the best compliment you'll ever get is when your client says your name voluntarily. So yeah, don't watermark your stuff man, that stuff's over. Um, I mean, I, we all remember like, you know, I don't like the, you know, the remember the hoodies that said gap real big on the front. That's all I can think about when I see somebody's watermark images and I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, you're, you are old navy right now. Like All right. I'll tell you why I brought that up because I've, uh, let's see like in the past. You know, I had like friends and things like that. Kids. I went to college, just just do some photography for me for, for free because they want to do it, you get started and things like that. So they put their little watermarks, I don't care. But then if I pay somebody, there's no way you're putting your watermark on my photos. And uh like one guy did, and it was like, it was even a little one, like in the corner, it was like a huge one. I was like, bro, this like, looks terrible. Like, first of all, in general, and I was like, how do we? And I was like, no. And then he was just like, delete the files are he was like, no, you gotta find those because I just paid you to do this. Yeah, it's just not that's just not a thing. You know, I mean, I don't be wrong. I love to have the conversation with people to explain to them the way copyright works, you know, and like how how that type of stuff happens. So, you know, anybody that pays me like a bridegroom, right? Like Christine and mike, they pay me to come in and shoot this beautiful wedding in uh new york and we go for it, their their wedding photos because their their memories, but they're my intellectual property. They don't own those images in any way whatsoever. I allow them to use those images in perpetuity. They can have a blast with them. But legally those are my photos. But what's fascinating to me is like a watermark doesn't make that more legal. like it doesn't, it doesn't change that at all. So my clients all know that I'm like, hey, here's how this works. I'm gonna give you these files in full resolution and I'm just gonna ask you like, don't make money on them. Don't sell your wedding photos to like I stock or something cheesy like that. Just enjoy them. But I'm not gonna put a watermark. It's just a, it's a tacky way. Like I said, it's a it's a desperate way to ask for attention, so do it. Just do better. Just like, I don't, I don't care about tagging the people because honestly, isn't that a better shout out? Like to me, it's to me it's such a good shout out when somebody posts an image and then other people have the opportunity to go over and click my name and be like, oh, this dude took it as opposed to like, you know, they're looking and they're like, what does that say? But it never fails me in the watermark always has some kind of cheesy camera in it. Like everybody's watermark is like the same dude whose logo has like a camera built into it and, and like, the name of the company is like, you know, Eclipse Productions or something, come on, like, just grow up, do do better stuff. That's what I'll say? There you go. I like that. Um actually one more photography, but I don't know, did you see when um, the photographer uh was trying to sue Lebron James for using his picture? Yeah, of of Lebron. Yeah. So what what is your what's your take on that? Uh you know, I I ended up getting into a relatively similar situation a few years ago, um with a you can't I mean, nobody is as well known as Lebron, but an equally well known uh person um you know, used used my photos for um for a, like a major tv show. Uh...

And yeah, dude, we lawyered up pretty hard on that one. He didn't have permission to do it. Um And everything came out like, well, how did he get the photos, You know, in the first place? Did he steal the photos? And I said, no, I sent them to him. Like, we have, we have these threads back and forth that say like, hey, I wanted you to see these, That doesn't mean that I'm giving you like carte blanche to use them. Um And so yeah, I think, you know, I'm in, we that was uh it never went to court. I'll say that because everybody on both ends new. Mhm. What the law is, you know, the law is like, you you have to pay for that stuff and there isn't a jury on earth that's gonna side with the like, Uber wealthy athlete who just took advantage of, like, the, you know, starving artist, which isn't exactly me, but you know what, I'm like posting it, like post on social media that, that's like, uh that's illegal. As you know, if you tag the photographer, it's not, but if you, if you post an image without giving any kind of photo credit, it actually is because it because it's, you know, it's, it's intellectual property of the person whether or not they pursue that or not. You know, social media is also kind of a weird gray area because simply by posting on instagram, you're actually giving instagram rights to those images as well. Um which is, which is like another really unique thing, but you're sharing rights with them. Um but yeah, I mean, you know, I'm just a, I'm a big believer in that, you know, I was just, but you'll, you'll see this when I finished Christina mike's wedding. Um dude, I guarantee you're gonna get a link to it. You know, they're gonna pass the link around and even though I'm going to send them this long email that says like, hey, share it, Have fun. Um, you know, do me a favor. If anybody post some, please ask them to tag me, people won't or you know, even five years from now. They're going to post an anniversary image and they won't and they'll forget and I'm not going to get bent out of shape about it or be like weird and passive aggressive, Like we just have more stuff to do, man, there's, there's better work to be done than to spend my life angsty against the people that paid me to be there. Yeah, for sure. Are you ready for some fun questions? Let's go. What's fun? All right. What? I know you said you grew up playing soccer. Uh Do you have a favorite soccer team? Ronaldo? Oh yeah. Ronaldo? The team. Ronaldo is a team. I mean he gets paid more than the whole team, so yeah. And he should, by the way, I actually am, I'm a really big PSG fan. I'm kind of on the fence about this P. S. G. Thing with with messy. Um I like I like messi don't get me wrong everybody before you like climb all over me. Um But I think, I think a lot of men how I think of Lebron, which is like, I'm not a big fan of the brand of Lebron James and I don't I'm not a huge fan of the brand of messy but but yeah, I'm a big PSG fan man, Neymar and um bop are just crazy. They didn't, I mean it's gonna be cool to see what they do this year, but I don't think they needed it. You're probably not going to believe me, but since we were just talking about legal and all that P. S. G. Actually Send me a postcard mail in 2012 when I was trademark NPG sports because they thought it was confusing the PSG like PGS, but they don't at that time, I don't know if they do they don't need trademarks in the U. S. So they couldn't do anything anyways and it was you nailed it, you stuck it to the man there. So I actually want to find that postcard because I think it had because I wanted to post in just because like the messy thing and they kind of blew up now again. Um But yeah that that was a weird scenario and I was like confused because it came in like half french half in english. You know Is this from Canada? Yeah dude I uh yeah I love I really do, I love P. S. G. I love me and you um not a big Liverpool fan, I just don't love the brand of...

...soccer. Um But as far as like international soccer goes. Um. Yeah dude, gosh I mean do you follow the MLS or? No, no, can I just just be like super blunt? So my so so what do you think, what do you think the key is for them to like actually get americans to watch mls versus watching Europeans owner like Premier League. That the thing is like the Mls has to stop being the place that really famous players go to retire. Um I mean you've got to be able to attract young talent and there is some like ballistic is a beast. But I mean like there's there's some american players that are really well known and they're doing some really good things, but I don't think that the culture of mLS soccer like even when you, when you see an MLS game, it just, it feels like this weird like bastardized version of soccer. There's like lights and, and like loud music and all of the like foghorns and it's like, man, is this a DJ Khalid concert or is it, are we going to actually play soccer today? Um, I don't know. So that's, that's my two cents. My son, my nine year old plays actually on a club team that feeds all the way up to Kansas city sporting. So he plays on one of their down line clubs and that has changed things for me a little bit. Um, I've started watching some some Casey sporting games because it's cool to watch the way like the director of coaching for my son's club is learning from all the way from like the, you know, the pro club level down. Yeah, so that's pretty cool. But yeah, I mean I'm not against mls, it's just, it just feels, it's kind of like, you know, I know a lot of like avid baseball fans that wouldn't watch a triple a game to save their life and it's like, it just, that's what it feels like. Like I wouldn't watch it on tv, but I would go in person. Yeah. Yes dude, absolutely go have a beer and cheer for soccer players. You guys, you guys definitely have to have some minor league team, but you guys don't have any proteins right, Arkansas. No, no, no majors. We've got we've got a couple pretty close to here. There's a um there's actually a local minor league team, the naturals that that feed the Royals um and so they're kind of a part of that and they're fun to watch. Um I mean I love man uh he grew up a big Yankees fans so um you know Jeter got inducted yesterday. I know I'm thank goodness man. Like like Jordan was was sick, huge moment, huge moment in sports just all the way around. Can I ask really quick though because because you're you're in this space, why why why is the PSG jersey Jordan? What what on earth does Jordan have to do with european? Soccer? Can we get there? Uh because he's a beast. I mean yeah, I'm there. I agreed, absolutely agree with you. I think I have more memes that go back and forth between me and my team that have Jordan and then like anything else and almost all of them are making fun of Lebron. But I mean yeah, so he, I mean he's brand, I mean it's a nascar to, he sponsors Nascar drivers and no, it just feels weird to me why I mean better. Jeter was like the, I think Jeter did he get his own logo? No, he didn't get his own logo. My thing about can go if you have the swing man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and honestly I could see Jeter getting like he yeah, I mean I was deserves a foot in that space. I think a rod deserves a foot in that space as much as Jeter does personally. But sure. But how savage is it that you get to put a basketball logo on? Baseball people like in their sport, baseball people, soccer people. Nascar like it's so random. That's what I'm saying. I just think it's weird. The other reason I ask, I just bought my son the like $140 messi jersey for a nine year old. Which is absurd by the way. But it's just, it's weird to me that like the home jersey is Jordan and the away jersey is Nike, but the away...

...jersey has pink on it so he wouldn't be caught dead wearing it even though I think it's really dope. Yeah. No, I don't, I don't know exact reason I have to look it up. But last last question, what I know you said, I think you shot 42 or 43 states or something. What what state, what are the states that you have in? Which one? Like do you really want to go to? And then what's like your a country that you haven't shot in that you want to shoot man. I haven't shot in like like Montana Wyoming kind of that corner of things probably dope because they got right like settings and exactly like somebody that's listening to this. Take me, can you want to go first? I don't know if that's the greatest recommendation right now, but that's fine. Oh yeah, that's how, that's how this, by the way, that's how this podcast all got started when you said, you know, when's the last time NElly had a better album than Kanye? And then I wanted to see what you, I said, oh why what do you think of the nelly album? Because I wanted to see because NEllie is my favorite and then you're Yeah, he crushed it man, he crushed it in country to alongside some of the bigger names in country and by the way, if I can just go on the record and say the actual answer to when was the last time nelly had a better album than Kanye has been. Every single nelly album except for college dropout. Uh Like Kanye was, Kanye is a one hit wonder the only reason any of us know how good Kanye is is because he tells us like anyway that's my two cents but it's a dream dream country to shoot him uh Thailand Norway uh New Zealand yeah, those, those three would be would be right at the top Norway. I've got um I've got a couple that has like claimed Norway but we were supposed to go there last year and uh and Covid hit and it just hasn't bounced back enough yet. Like those, those countries are still kind of struggling their way through how travel works and whether or not things are efficient and so, um, but man, a killer wedding in Thailand would be unreal, but it would, it would require the right couple and not some like weird sweaty dude that is going to be like gross and nasty right off by the way. That is me. Just so we can be clear, but I don't have to be in front of the camera. Yeah, for sure. I need like a skinny hipster kid to go to Thailand. All right, well I appreciate you coming. And could you let the listeners know where you can follow you at? Uh, yeah, dude, thank you. Um, I appreciate the invite. Honestly, this is cool. The only podcast I'm ever on or like super nerdy photography podcasts and I just want to talk about my lighting kits and stuff like that. So it's cool to chat with somebody about sports and more real stuff. Uh, my name is Miles with Boyer to tease and dude, at, at Miles with Boyer on literally everything or just google that and it'll, uh, it'll get you two pages and pages and pages of ways to get in contact with me and I actually forgot to ask you, I've been seeing your, I don't know if you're deciding to start a podcast or doing it and you're just teasing everybody. So tell me, tell the latter, Tell me about that. The last thing. The latter. Uh Yeah, dude, so I mean this is, it's been kinda in the making for a while, so um I actually was a part of one for a while um with a couple of other pretty well known photographers but the problem was that trying to get all four of us, it was like a, it was like an around the, around the horn type concept and it was just way too hard to schedule. It was super dope when it worked, but it's just way too hard to schedule it. So yeah, so um my, one of the guys that works for me Jared is this brilliant sound engineer. The guys just, he's a freak and Um so he and I have decided uh that it's that it's kind of go time. So it's a really short short hitting like 12-15 minute, quickly digestible concepts for for people up living up leveling their their photography careers. So yeah, super easy. I don't know, I don't want...

...to be an entertainer man, I don't have time for it. So I'll leave that to you, you and your dope groomsmen speeches. I think it was my selling those, this is my, this is my side gig. Yeah, hustle. I think you should start selling your groomsmen speeches alright. Them be like yours up short and suite rooms, groomsmen speeches by paul that it was your delivery. That was so good man. Don't even don't even write them just I need pictures because then they're just going to be fired and I'm just gonna just like this is the best speech of my life. That's it. But just pre record them and then and then just ask the guy like the groom to the groomsmen to just like hold a little recorder up to the mic and then yeah, I think the big guy. Well again I appreciate it and uh it was great to meet you and I'll let you know when this releases and yeah, let me know man. I appreciate it. Have a good day. All right. This episode has been brought to you by B. Usr dot com. Go check it out to get your free $100 bet when you deposit a $100 at B. U. S. R. Dot com slash paul. Okay. Mhm. Yeah.

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