Average to Savage
Average to Savage

Episode · 1 month ago

Miles Witt Boyer | Average to Savage EP138

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This is the one hundred and thirty-eighth episode of the Average to Savage podcast featuring one of the world's best wedding photographers Miles Witt Boyer. Paul Guarino talked with Miles Witt Boyer discussing how we met, why he became a wedding photographer, and how he operates running his own business. 

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This podcast interview with Miles Witt Boyer was originally recorded on September 9, 2021

...this is the average to Savage podcastwith paul Guerrino. Everyone in anyone athletes celebs andmuch more. Today's episode is brought to you by bUSr dot com, you know, everyone always asks me where they should bet and now Igot a solution for them. The U. S. R. Dot com slash paul. You deposit $100they'll match your $100 in free bets. So you basically get $200 Go check itout, be USr dot com slash paul top. Everybody welcome back to anotherepisode of the Average Savage podcast. Our special guest today is photographerMiles wit Boyer. A little background. Usually I don't do this, but I'll givea little background because you know, things randomly happened in thisinterview randomly happened. I was at a wedding last week. Everybody knows I'vebeen to a lot of weddings this summer and you were the photographer and Iknew Michael Massoni, he flew you out from Arkansas and I was confused why,but then I figured out why once you were there, I understood the missionand I understood why after seeing you and, and I think, you know, obviously,I think people's a lot of people's photography, you know, could stick outand things like that. But I think it was obviously like your personality andthings like that. Um, that set you apart probably from other photographers. Dude that's like the greatest introever. Can I just get that little piece of recording sent over to me so I canuse that for like, I don't know, everyone's testimony for everythingfrom now on. If that's uh, if that's good. Yeah, Dude, I'm stoked to hangwith you. It was a first off, it was a good wedding, secondly, don't exposethe long con people fly me all over the world for, for weddings man. So we wantpeople to assume that it's actually worth the investment even though, youknow, come on. Like, yeah, I just get paid to party. Yeah, for sure. Well,you know, you know, being from Connecticut, you know, close to newyork. Like I would just think like, you know, it would be easy to find someonearound, you know what, a lot of my, I mean, I actually moved to Arkansas fromnew york. So a lot of my, a lot of my good friends are still, you know, closeto the city and there's definitely a lot of talent. But um, you know, itreally is the same. Like across almost all creative industries, people areleaving the coasts like crazy. It's just too expensive to do life. Likenone of us, none of us got into, none of us got into wedding photography sothat we could, You know, like grind out 16, 18 hour days. Like we, we all justwant to chill and have fun and make enough money to like see the world,right? So yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean definitely during corona, a lot ofpeople from new york moved to Connecticut. So it's crazy. Uh, florida.All my clients live in florida. No, like everybody, everybody's like, oh,you don't have to wear a mask down there. There's no virus in florida. Whoknew? Oh my God, that's another, that's all another conversation. That's okay.Part two, we're coming back for part two, man. I told you I do a lot ofpodcasts were just, I'm just gonna talk in circles, we're going to make this.Maybe we should just do a podcast. I don't know. Maybe together bullshit. Ican be average and you can be savaged. There you go. All right, well, let'sjust go back in time. How, how did you get started with photography? There's a,there's a golden question. Um, that's the one that, that everybody asks and Ishould have a great answer. And I just never do. Uh, when I was a, uh, I tooka job, my first job that I ever took, I was, I was 15 years old. I worked as adarkroom technician and carrying gear for a, for a wedding photographer. Um,and I did that like all the way through high school for just long enough for meto like swear out loud that I would never shoot weddings. Ever. Um,actually, my, my senior thesis, uh, in art school was a paper written abouthow wedding photography was killing the industry. Like it was, it was the thingthat was like pulling the soul out of the photo industry. Um, but yeah, so Imean, I've, I've been, I've been working, you know, at least in somecapacity in this field since I was a kid uh and kind of danced around a lotman, I worked for a whitewater rafting...

...company for a while as a, like atourist photographer, which was kind of dope, I just kayaked all day and then Iworked for a rock climbing company for a little while doing basically the samething, uh moved to new york and worked for a fashion uh like a modeling agencyessentially, and shot a couple of big campaigns and and kind of got my nameuh sort of on the board just enough for me to realize like that's not what Iwanted my life to look like. Um and then just coincidentally about the sametime I met my wife uh and um she was in Arkansas girl with this like super cutesouthern drawl and this like kind of hot swag for college football and slowliving and just like that's what she wanted out of life and there wassomething really attractive about it, so she was right, she said, come cometo Arkansas, it's the greatest place in the country to own a small business anduh She's not wrong and it's a it's a great, like it's definitely a greatplace to be. So, so that there you go, there's there's 15 years of career in30 seconds. There you go. Yeah, I mean, I've never been in Arkansas, so I guessI gotta check it out one day. But um, how did you, how did you, uh, I know.Where did you, where did you grow up? Uh New Mexico actually in the mountainin the mountains in Northern New Mexico. I was just a, just a ski kid. Um, mydad's an archaeologist or was, I guess an archaeologist. My mom was an artteacher. So I just sort of grew up like artsy and you don't kind of obsessedwith uh, with sports. And so that, that was the, the only like outlet for mewas I need a place where I can play soccer and learned photography. Thatwas, that's kind of, you know, life goals. And then I grew up and I ditchedsock. Well, I didn't ditch soccer. I just blew out both my knees. Yeah.Gotcha. And then, so you went to, you said you went to art school? So it, wasthat like a college or like what is that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I went to, soyeah, I went to a, like a private, um, it's, it really is just a liberal artsuniversity called john Brown University. It's a killer school, but it's one ofthe, it's one of the better photography programs in the country. Um, and uh,like I said, that was the big thing for me was find a school that, that I couldplay soccer at and, and uh, that, you know, I would walk away. There's nolongevity and being a soccer player, that's just not a thing. So then Icould walk away with a great art degree and uh, that, that happened, I mean,the soccer didn't last long, like I mentioned, I blew my new pretty quick,but um, but I was kind of teed up to have a great career because I went to a,you know, a great program. So, Um, and a lot of my employees, a lot of guysthat worked for me over the last 10 years have also come out of thatprogram. I was a professor there for a little while. So, um, so I, I kind ofrecruited my own staff for a little while, right out of school. So yeah.Yeah, that's awesome. So all right. So do you think being a photographer,being like creative, like, do you think college was necessary, man? I want to say yes, because I wantto believe in in that system. And yeah, I read a statistic the other day, itwas like a Wall Street Journal um, report. So you'd think at leastrelatively legit that um, the stats of guys going to college right now, likethe lowest they've been in like the last 100 years or something like that.Like, it's just not happening anymore. And I want to believe that the idea oflike going to a professional school is a really valuable thing. I also want tobelieve that that going to an art school where you're surrounded by umyou know, people that can pour into you creatively and try and and uh and andinspire you to kind of like expand your own ability is also a good thing, butthe truth of the matter is I've been kind of behind that curtain and there'sa lot of politics, there's a lot of money involved, there's a lot ofdecisions that are being made that aren't necessarily in the student'sbest interest and uh you know, they're...

...kind of in the interest of prolongingthe program or expanding the program or whatever. So, you know, short answer.No, I really don't. I think in this day and age you can probably uh in acreative field you can probably forgo college if you're ambitious enough toteach yourself what you would have learned. Um But I will all second thatanswer by saying, I have met very few people in my career that are ambitiousenough or disciplined enough to teach themselves much of anything except fora lot of bad habits. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean I agree with you to justbecause like I go back and forth with, because I just think about all the time,like as I got older, I feel like it's just less and less like valuable, Iguess to me that I went besides like the networking aspect and um and likeyou said, like, I think college should be instead of the four, I think theyshould get rid of the four year and just do like a two year and whateveryour major is because the first two years usually just prereqs and thingslike that. Yeah, and you're, you're basically learning things. I mean,here's the problem is there's no standardized level of like trulystandardized level of what what you should have learned in high school andso you spend the first two years trying to get everybody on a level playingfield and uh and all that really does is to me, what I've noticed is that ittakes the top end of the class and brings them down and it gives thebottom end of the class of chance to rise up and you know, it's not likethere's a discount on those two years. So um yeah, I kind of agree with you. Ithink it's it's at some point you've got to ask people to just sort of likedive in and make a decision for what their life is gonna look like. But Imean, you've only got to be around people our age for five minutes torealize that most people. And I mean that genuinely, I think most peoplemake it all the way through their adult life, just reacting to whatevercircumstances are around them having no idea what they want their life to looklike and they wake up at retirement age and realize that, you know, at bestthey have saved enough money to retire, but their entire adult life is behindthem. So yeah, for sure, maybe one day you'll open up your own school forphotography. No, no man, come on, don't put that on me. Uh, no, we, you know, Ido a lot of training, so I do a lot of teaching and mentoring and um, I speakat conferences kind of all over the country and um, you know, sort ofblessed at this point to have enough of a reach because of my endorsements andsome awards and stuff that we've won, that for whatever reason people willlisten. And so I, uh, you know, while that wave is in front of, I feel likekind of have the responsibility to say the right things. So, so tell all right,so tell me what you, when your first wedding was that you did, and then tellme like what your big break was and like, you got to like quit your job andstart your own business. Oh yeah. So first wedding, this is a funny storyand I was The first wedding that I shot, I was 16years old. I worked for a photographer named Jillcave in and then I did not want to be at a wedding. I had no interest to. Butum, but like this is how every good man story starts to the girl that I wascrushing on hard uh, was, was also like, was an assistant for her and so I getthis call that's like, hey, we're gonna go to this wedding in santa fe, I coulduse a second assistant and uh, like this girl will be there and so I'm like,okay. And then she tells me which this, I mean, I don't, I'm not gonna sell howold I am, but this was, You know, like pre-2000, right? So then she tells methat she's going to pay me $20 an hour on top of that and I'm like, I'm done.Like, yeah, I could spend all day with with this girl and getting paid for it.Like, let's go. Um and, and I never even saw my photos from that wedding. Iguarantee they were horrible. I was definitely not focused on what I shouldhave been. Um honestly, I mean that was...

...a circus of of a decision. But anyway,so between there and, you know, the end of college though, there was like ahandful of weddings mostly for friends or like people that really couldn'tafford an actual photographer and we're willing to take a risk on this likecocky photo student. That was like, yeah, how hard could that be? Um thatwas really high developed that opinion on the fact that it's like, man, thisis trash, like wedding photography is, is horrible. Uh and, and then aftercollege, um, you know, I, I mentioned there's some stuff kind of moved to newyork kind of moved around and my wife, Um, but in 2009 we decided like, I'mgonna, I'm gonna kind of start this company and, and kind of dive in and Ican do this for real. And um, it took me probably three years realisticallyof just sort of floating on my personality. I don't know how to saythat, it's just true. Like I just was like floating on the fact that like, Icould just sort of charm people and make them happy and, and thephotography needed to catch up like the art, the actual work needed to catch upwith the fact that I was like good at talking people into hiring me, But by2012, we, we had, we kinda started to sort of take over this area a littlebit and regionally, people kind of knew the name and um, you know, the brandstarted growing and uh, and so I was getting some exposure there and, andthat's when, uh, ironically a kid, you not like the wedding that you and Ijust met at last week was a down line from a wedding that I shot in. Uh, Ithink it was 2,011, maybe 10 or 11. I shot a wedding in Vermont that was likea total fluke, they hired me, I was in way over my head, but I was like, yeah,I mean, let's go, it's beautiful, absolutely beautiful wedding and weended up getting the cover of, of new England weddings magazine from that andeverything just sort of blew up from there man, once you, once you get acouple of good covers like life changes rapidly and so Yeah, so that that downline kind of clientele started and what's wild is here we are 10 or 12years later or whatever, I can literally trace the wedding that youand I were at last weekend to that couple. Like I I can see that that lineall the way down and every couple that kind of sat in a way and so man, we'vebeen to Gosh Canada and Iceland and Turks and Caicos and napa andeverywhere with that group of people just with that line of people kind ofall over the world now, so Yeah. Yeah, that's crazy. I mean they always saystill no matter what the word of mouth is still the best referrals, who caresabout everything I do that. The other thing is like if you get referrals fromsomebody else, you've got to sell them all over again. Yeah. Um but man, whensomebody, when somebody tells you that you can trust somebody else, like youwant to believe in them, so I just haven't messed it up yet. Yeah, I don'tknow if you even knew um after the, after the pictures at the whatever youwant to call the ocean spot, um, max are the kid on the jet ski came up tomax, It was like, I'm doing my first wedding tomorrow. Like johnny advice.No, that's awesome. So I was like, that's like a full like circle thingwhen you were just saying all that stuff and I was just like, it was kindof crazy because like the kid just came up and I wanted mike to get on the jetski and take some pictures headed to man. I just didn't want to play so hard.Like we kind of kind of sugar because he had, he had the other suit. So Ijust have to, I just have to watch my liability a little bit on that, right?Like, you know if it's my idea and the guy drowns, you know, who's liable forthat decision. But dude, that's awesome. You know what's interesting actually,what that place that we're at glen, what's that? Glen island, like anisland park, something like that. Um, what's really interesting is I postedan instagram story like right at sunset um, of me walking back to the shuttleto catch you guys to catch up with the guys when you guys were all smoking thecigars behind the shuttle and uh, And a...

...photographer that has been following mefor like, I don't know, five or 6 years. Um, wrote me, he was on the other endof the park shooting a wedding at the same time. I've never met him. I'venever, I mean he's written back and forth to me a few times, but he waslike, he was there at the same time. It's just such a, like this industry isso much smaller than you think it is. I feel like every, every industry like,you know, there's 10 million people in everything that you do and then by thetime you elevate to a point where something is actually valuable about it,there's very few people that actually kind of hanging in those in thosespaces. So the world is definitely small. I'm sure, I'm sure there'sprobably somebody's wedding that you did that and possibly know or somethinglike that, guaranteed. Crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. So yeah. Dude, I like, Idon't know. I just, I want to part two of this thing when we launch our ownpodcast. I want to know your story, man. I want to hear the whole thing. Like Iknow you give him me in speech. I've heard that now. Oh God, that was solid.I Gave Myself A six. That was, I mean, I give you a 62, but it's, I don't knowif you have a 10. Like, I don't know. You know what I mean? I feel like sixis topped out. So testing that just resting. That's not good. No, I'm justplaying. It was solid. It was really good. Like all right. So this is whatthe backstory of that was lay through his other best men. Uh, we agreed tocut out stuff and he didn't cut out anything. But I could out a lot. What apunk man. I'll click this incentive to That's right. That's right. Send thisover and be like, yeah, I mean he held you back. It was there's no doubt there.Oh dude, no, I'm serious. I get to hear a lot of speeches and People, a lot ofpeople ask me for like my advice on that. Just because I've, you know, I'veheard 500 speeches now or whatever. And and typically I tell people that arelike, you know, just eliminate first things first, eliminate inside jokes.They're dumb. Nobody even the people that they're meant to be told to.Nobody laughs at him. So like eliminate the inside jokes and then uh, you know,don't spend the whole time just poking fun at the dude. Like it's his day.Like let him let him shine a little bit. It's okay to like, you don't have toflirt with them to like raise them up a little bit and kind of give him somecredit. And then you did that. Like it was solid. It was it was a good speechall the way around and you know what's even more important than the actualspeech I took. Really dope pictures are you giving it? And so that's nobodyremembers these. Just gonna remember the pictures good. I could post thepictures and the video done. And then you can, but then you can say toeverybody, this is the world we live in. You can just caption it with, I gavethe best speech ever. Height me. Uh huh. Yeah, for sure. For sure. No. And Ijust like, uh, like my whole thing and just life is just being real. Like Ididn't want to talk like, you know, like it's an essay for him. Like I justwant to talk regular like how I talk and that's what that's what I did. Umeven though it's short, but whatever. And uh, so yeah. And then just goingback to weddings in general. Like I know. So, how many, how many weddingshave you have you shot total? You think? I never know how to I don't know. Idon't know. But we have people that are like, how do you not have over Accountover 200? Oh yeah. Over 500. All right. Yeah, a lot. Like a lot. Have You beenin all 50 states? 42, states. And uh, and I think 16 countries, somethinglike that. Um Yeah, a lot, man. Like We had one, we had one season where we did19 states, uh, in one season. Like it's it's nuts. I've actually peeled back alittle bit on the travel over the course the last few years, even beforeCovid just because my kids are like, my kids are getting older and uh, and dude,it sucks to miss like soccer practices and games and um, I think the hardestthing about being a creative in that...

...situation is like, I want to be sopresent, but I'm so distracted. So yeah, we've pulled back a little bit, but fora while there, it was like full steam ahead on like, you know, have camerawill travel. I never did the like weird van life thing. That's a thing rightnow. And I've never been a five, I'm too boozy for that. I'm like, man, Ineed a hot shower and a really solid dinner and a good whiskey or I'm notthere. But yeah, for sure. Like what, what's like your average, like, what'syour goal in the beginning of the season to like, how many like weddingsyou want to do or Like capital 25, which is still, um, you know, a lotmore than most people in the industry will shoot. I think we've just gottenmore efficient. It doesn't um, It doesn't slow me down. I did one season,I did 42 weddings and, and uh, sorry, sorry. There are 44 weddings And thatwas 2016 and it was just, that was just way too much. I like, I couldn't keepup and the editing load alone was too much and I refused this to outsourcethat stuff. That's, that's pretty common, but um, I want to keep it allin house and do it all right, so, So yeah, I cap it at 25 now and every time,You know, we get an inquiry beyond that, somebody in my team takes it. And anduh so I uh 2019, we had 76 weddings as a company Um that I, you know, Ioversee it all, but only 25 of them were mine. So, yeah. Actually, whatabout, like, what happens when, like, one of your friends is getting married?Like, do you do it? Or like, you get your your other people do? Uh I try, it's sort of case by case. UmIt sort of depends on what that friendship looks like, and if I if Ican sense any, like, yeah, any weakness there. Um this is anoddly intimate relationship that you end up building, and it's not like Isit around and watch Nicholas sparks movies, man, like, I'm not like thisweird diehard romantic. Um it's a business, you know, like, I I love myjob, I love being a creative, but like, I don't I didn't get into this so thatI could, like make shadow puppets of hearts on the wall. So, so, a lot oftimes my my close friends will call because they know that they're going toget, like, a very real experience out of me, but that doesn't mean they'regetting a discount because the work is the same kind of, no matter what, Andso I kind of deter a lot of friends from hiring me if if at all possible.Uh one for lack of a better way to put it. Dude, I'm I'm kind of expensive andI don't know if I would pay for me. I don't know if can I say that? I'm justgetting that's not true. I totally would. But um but to honestly, I don'tknow, I don't want to muddy the water with with good friends. So what I endup telling everybody is like, um, you know, mike and Christina being aperfect example, all of my clients end up becoming friends, but I don't loveit when life happens the other way around. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, Iwas more so saying like of you missing the wedding technically because you'llbe working. Yeah, I miss them all the time. No, no. I mean like, so it's yourfriends wet. So, I'm saying, all right, say it. Your good friend, right? Andthey want to hire you to do their wedding, but you're like, no, like,you're my good friend. Like, I want to beat like I want to enjoy it and bethere and not work it. You know what I'msaying? Yeah, that happen It. No, no, because uh I mean, here's if this saysanything, I've only been a groomsman once in the last 10 years if I'm gonnabe at the wedding, I want to, I want to hold the camera. Um and that's not mebeing like overly confident or cocky. It's just me saying like, like Imentioned a few minutes ago, there's this is a fairly narrow field of peoplethat do it kinda at this level and there's a lot of people that do it alot better than I do. I mean, don't get me wrong, like, like there's somephotographers out there that just blow my mind. Um But there it's, there's nota lot of like, you know, uncle bob photographers on the corner out therethat are, that are gonna outshoot me.

And so, you know, if I'm gonna be there,whether I'm paid or not, if I'm gonna be there, I'd love to be the guy that's,you know, helping capture and control and make sure that those memories andand all of that is safe. But I have missed a lot of friends weddingsbecause they hired another photographer to invite me to come to their weddingand then I had an opportunity to, you know, shoot a big wedding elsewhere.And it's like, well, I mean, it's hard to say no to guaranteed income so thatI can spend money to go to, you know what I mean? So yeah, for sure youjaded by it too, man. It's like, I feel like if I sat, I'll put it this way, Ifeel like if I sat courtside every single game like every game and thensomebody were to try and charge me to go see another team play that I didn'tlove as much. I'd be like, uh you know, I'm, I'm good actually. I'm okay. Imean, I get like, I get V. I. P. At every wedding I eat, I eat first, Idance first. I'd show with a couple back, you know, like, so to be a guestfor me sometimes is uh like from a personal perspective, I love to supportthem, but it's not as much fun. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. Like, yeah, being thegroomsman thing. Like I was in three this year and I'm like, at this pointI'm retired. Call it. He pulled the hat trick andhe's done. Yeah. Like that was, that was just too much, too much stuff. Thatwas crazy. But I was so, I went to five weddings and that was like, because Ionly probably been like as an adult, I'm saying I've only been so likeprobably two or three And then going to five and 1 basically two months. I wasjust like, wow, this is like nuts. Yeah. I went to five last month man at yourjob. It is, it is definitely my job. So yeah, getting to that. Like, what? Allright. You got to tell me like, what? What has been like, give me your likeyour top, I don't know, three or 5, like best ones are like craziest ones. Um and then for me, this is this is aweird weird question to answer because so much about it. I've been doing itfor so long, So much about it is about the the client like the relationshipthat I have with them. Yeah and so I mean I've I've seen some wild thingslike some absolutely beautiful you know like million dollar weddings in the,that a weird farm in Vermont that jay Z and Beyonce were staying out at thesame time right? Like um And and we did did 13 weeks ago now. Um That was likeyou know million dollar wedding at a billion dollar art museum right? Likeand the first look happened, I kid you not the first look happened like nextto an Andy Warhol. Um I mean like just nuts, absolutely nuts, stuff like that,but none of that. I'll say this like noneof that to me doesn't really add value to like whether or not I enjoy it orwhether or not I feel creative or inspired by it. Um You know I did awedding uh just a few years ago in Iceland for a good friend of mine, hewas my trainer actually at the time after my last knee surgery he kind oflike nursed me back to health and so you so you do have good friends. YeahI've got like one. but he was a trainer so we like we had that we already hadthat relationship like I was his client and then he was mine. And anyway, Likethat, that was, that was just insane. That was epic. Like 80 mile an hourwinds and blowing waterfalls and like Some of the craziest thing I've everseen um or I did a wedding uh in I think 2017 at the base of an activevolcano in Guatemala. Um So do the scale is just all over the boardwhether or not it's like me dancing with 1000 people in new york or me, youknow, like walking hand in hand with my wife up the side of a mountain inCanada with just like two people. Um...

But do I, I've sort of seen it all atthis point and I love, I will tell you what I love. Like I love the, I lovethe chill. Like the real, I love the real the couples that are just, man,they're just smitten and and they're cheesy and they're just like drippingwith bad love poems and like they're just here. They're here for it, right?And they're just in this time in their life that's like, you know, let's justgo right now, let's get out of here and let's go get married when I, when I hadthe opportunity to be alongside that, it's uh it's so much more fun for me tosay like, hey, I don't care that it's raining, Let's go get wet or um youknow, whatever your dress got dirty. Who cares? Like the only reason youeven wanted the white dress was so he'd think you were pretty. So the fact thatit's a little dirty on the back doesn't matter. Let's go. So yeah, for sure.What about have you have you done any like famous people's weddings? I have,but I don't kiss and tell man. Um I know, I mean off the air. Now. I've gotI've got I've got a few ideas and stuff like that. But yeah, I've shot somewe've got some some athlete weddings and some, you know more well knownpeople. Um some actors and but uh yeah, not I mean not not a ton. That's again,that's not really the demographic that I go after. I've got a couple offriends in southern California that like that's what they shoot, you knowum like you know when Mariah gets married for the 14th time or whatever.I know who she's you know, she's gonna I'm just kidding. So I'm sorry Maria,but I mean that's just not me. I won't get that call. I keep waiting like, youknow, ali love got engaged from pollution and I was like, come on, Imean I I ride alongside you all the time, but she never called. I don'tknow Bieber never called either. No matter how many times I can refer youto some people, but there you go, dude. All right. Let's go. Like I actuallyrandom fact, I actually did uh some social media work for a guy that shoots.And he lives in bora bora. And he's a photographer. And like the same samething when I was like, and he told me all these like dope people he shot andI was like, oh you guys like semi those and like we could post them. It'll bedope for like social media. And he's just like, oh yeah, like, you know,like a majority of them signed to India so we can't post them. Yeah, it doesn'tyeah, it doesn't it doesn't happen like that. I mean typically the the it's aninteresting thing because like in the just sort of the normal world, right?Like, like our life um you know the you can like convince the bride that thevalue is in like more photographers, more videographers like let's addproduction, let's add hours in in those weddings. It's funny. They're like, hey,can you show up for four hours completely by yourself. You know, leavewithout saying bye and never tell anybody that you took these pictures.And it's it's a totally different. I mean it's a different world altogether,but I don't believe you got hired before and they're like, just don'ttalk to us at all. Just take pictures. No, no, not so much that I mean becauseI usually like I wouldn't take that wedding. Like yeah, I would say no tothat couple. It doesn't matter who they are. I don't know if if Bieber called,I'd probably go for it, look at me. But now dude, I mean I have been in situations for surewhere it's like, hey, You know, this is a very intimate wedding, very affluentcouple. There's only like 25 people invited and there's one pink elephantin the room and he's holding a camera right? So it's sort of like, you know,kind of get in, do the best job you can to sort of blend in. But then, you know,like when you feel like you've got, you've got a really good handle of thephotos, feel free to just sort of duck out when you're ready. Yeah, that'sfine too. It's not my wedding. I mean, I just try not to go into these thingswith a ton of ego if I'm honest. Like I want the people to feel like they hiredsomebody that's gonna take care of them and love on them and man, whatever thatlooks like. Whether that's us dancing in a big wild what that place wascalled, The surf club that had, there was such a, that's like falseadvertising man, you walk in and it's...

...like a giant baby grand piano and dualstaircases. It was like the buddhist, I did not expect that. I was thinkinglike Tiki, I don't know, I thought we'd all be taking shots of tequila off. Ididn't know, I knew it was nice. I just didn't know why the name was that name.It didn't make sense. I didn't either, especially that it's in a bay andthere's not even like a ripple. So it was, it was an interesting thing. Theplace was really cool though. So like, you know, surf club, I will come back.I will be more prepared next time though. Um but it was, I mean it wasbeautiful. It was absolutely beautiful. But, but that's like a perfect exampleof, you know, I end up in these like ballrooms sometimes that like, I justdidn't expect it. I because every picture that you see on their websiteis like outside and that beautiful space down by the beach. So I wasthinking that and then we walk in and I'm like this giant chandeliers andit's in the ballroom. I'm like, all right, curve ball, you know, set upsome lighting and let's go. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's why. And just likegoing back to like networking things like that. That's how we got connectedto the wedding. So I'm sure you made like so many connections just fromgoing like not just the bride and groom and things like that and that's whywhen I was just talking about the bora bora thing and that's where theyactually went for their honeymoon. Mike Christina and then I was like, you know,if you need a photographer out there. I actually know a guy and he like, hethought I was kidding and I was just like, no dude, I actually like, noah,photographer out there, that's super cool. And he really should connect him.That'd be really fun. I mean I asked, he didn't, we didn't do it. He'sprobably so he's probably booked right now. Well then again, but I don't knowbecause corona, everyone's like not, you know, everything is not open. So itcould still happen. That's, that's really neat though. Yeah, I mean that'sa big deal to me. You, you got to see that firsthand. I want to make surewhen we're at a wedding that um, you know, that everybody, you know, maybenot like the extended guests. I can only like spread ourselves so thin,right? But that everybody that's in the wedding party, all the family,everybody feels like they have have access to us as photographers tocapture what, what needs to be captured. And so I spent a lot of time justhanging out with the groomsmen and hanging out with the bridesmaids and,and you know, there's a lot of time you've got to see this, a lot of timespent with me just setting the camera down and uh, it takes a lot ofdiscipline for a lot of photographers to, to do that because they'reperpetually afraid they're going to miss something. But it's like, well,there's a lot of tax, there's a lot of, there's a lot of wisdom and saying like,you know, hey, it would be better for a couple to have like amazing memoriesand potentially not have a picture of that then to go through an entire daywhere all they did all day long was just go from like photo shoot to photoshoot, you know? So yeah, I'm sure you will know this already. But like, likeI've even seen it just like, even like when I post content, like you say it'slike an actual, there's a photo shoot or something and like the Gara have andstuff like that. But then like, yeah, it gets good engagement whatever. Butthen I do like behind the scenes thing and that engagements like way betterand like everyone like likes to see like that stuff more. Yeah, double Yeah.There's something really valuable about being able to see how things arecreated and, and just be able to experience that. So like you're like Isaid, you're a perfect example of that. I mean it's a big deal to me to taketime to just to like connect and get to know the people at the wedding and uh,and find out, you know, like who is this dude that's giving the speech and,and why? Right? Like why him? Uh, it turns out you were just hired fromcraig's list pretty much the day before the way at this point at this point,like I'm like a wedding crasher. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah 55 and one summer.Yeah, I mean, you should probably be billing for this. I actually think youshould probably invoice mike and Christine and just see if they'll pay. I should. But since he's like almost adoctor, he'll build me for my web MD questions, but don't really, don't sendthose over to him. You can't trust that. Almost a doctor man, like at least waituntil he gets graduates. Um Yeah. And then what about, whatadvice would you give to like a young photographer coming up?...

Oh man, bail. Mhm Now, uh man, I, II'll say this like the older I get, the more I realizedthat um man, the human body is just, it's just like fascinating. Anythingthat we do in repetition, it doesn't matter what it is. Just literallyanything that we do in repetition. We we get good at. Um So if if you win allthe time, if all you do is win, you get good at winning, man. And if you'reself deprecating or you stand in your own way, uh you get good at doubtingyourself. And if you think you're going to grab acamera and roll out and take pictures that not only you're stoked about, butother people are going to pay a lot of money for, but not practice. Thensomebody that's probably half as talented as you, but but more committedto to just the the art of practice will pass you in a hurry. Uh And so I meanthat that's where I would say we have a lot of people because of my, myassociation with fuji film and some of the teams that I'm on, social teamsthat I'm on, a lot of people will write me, you know, a year or two yearsanother career and say like, hey, how do I get endorsed, helping me? You just got to get better work. I mean,you just have to, you just, you've got to work more. So I've shot probably onaverage somewhere in the realm of 4-6000 photos a week Every week forover 10 years. So I mean, dude, if I wasn't taking beautiful photos at thatpoint, I'm like a massive failure. Alright. Like, man,I really suck if you don't, if you don't get good at it by then. So Ithink that success is often a byproduct of just ambition and uh and practice.Um So that's that's what I would tell. I mean, not just photographers, I'dtell anybody, you know, like if you don't want to miss free throws, thenstop missing them. Like that's, you know, that likethere's the like the key to life if you want more money in your checkingaccount, then stop spending it, like get better at making it. Yeah, no, for sure. And then like even Icheck out your website too, so I think like possibly if this is correct, likeon the dates was the the actual weddings of the, I think it was likeblogs, you kind of like post, is that what it is? Yeah, I don't post everyevery wedding doesn't get blog. Um I understand the date, the date of it wasfrom the wedding, the actual wedding date. Is that? No, no, it's just thedate that I posted that I that I blog about it because there's a lot of blogsin there as well about that are like tips and tricks and stuff forphotographers or whatever, that's about the complementary again, but I guess Ican't, no, uh we'll go for it, I'll take it and then I'll just, I'll justretract my last comment Uh because I thought, I thought thosewere the ones that like, so say it was said like September one, I was thinkingthat wedding happened September one. I was like, well you got it done alreadyin that time frame. Oh no, I I am like, I'm, you know, on my other screen rightnow, I'm looking at um I'm looking at a wedding that was three weeks ago and itwill be done by tomorrow. Um Yeah, so we, we usually run under a month. Imean that's a that's a big problem with our industry right now as photographersjust over commit themselves um and they take six or eight months to get stuffout, you know? Um and uh yeah, you need to, we always laugh. I'm like I uhthere's no way I'm gonna get your photos back to you before, before yourfirst fight but I hope I can get them back to you before your second, youknow? So you gotta power through that first fight but by the time you're onthat second fight, hopefully you have some pictures to look at. Yeah for sure.And then yeah what like what is it like?...

Because I know uh with computers andstuff like what is it like for you like equipment wise and like just gettingstuff uh like what programs do you use and things like that. Because I knowlike even like yesterday I use Dropbox and it stopped letting me use sharedlinks for some reason because the bandwidth and I was like what is this?I was like I've never seen this before. Yeah. No way man. Uh So so you knowI'll preface that the only like nerd talk thing I'm gonna say is um you know,I'm shooting the absolute most tech advanced camera ever ever released umis a fujifilm large format digital Um called the g. f. x. 100 of the 100 aswe shoot both of them. And uh you know, each individual file is over 100megabytes before it's edited. Um And so you know when we're delivering 1000files to to a client you're looking at um you know dozens of gigs of ofuploaded and downloadable material And the backups alone, you know, aretypically for a wedding or somewhere in the realm of 700-800 GB. So we'repushing close to a terabyte per wedding. Um so by the time I I get these thingsedited down, you know, the the importance of efficiency of like aclean workflow, that means that I never lose anything. I don't misplaceanything I can understand and you know, easily get get to weddings from 2009 or10 and you know, and still get to the files if I needed them for some reasonthat that's the critical piece. So so we're using light room for the vastmajority of the editing work. Um And uh and then Photoshop and a program a plugin program called luminary Ai is doing a lot of the processing work for me.All of it is done by hand though. Like everything is, you know, there's nobulk processing. So every image is touched, Edited individually, one at atime. And and it takes a long time. It's a big commitment for each wedding.It's one reason why I limit the number of weddings that I take. So I can kindof do it right. Um But then we have a server program um The one that we'reusing right now is actually called zen folio And I've got 780,000 files thatI've delivered over the last 12 years now um organized in there and it's,it's like dropbox on steroids, but it's a lot prettier. Um So it's a mucheasier way to catalog organize everything, you know, send individuallinks and all that type of stuff. But we're about to move over. I think Ijust had a really cool call the day before yesterday actually. I think Iwant to be signing on as an ambassador for a new company called pick time. UmAnd it's a similar, similar thing. It's just a cleaner user interface and umthere's a, there's a number of them out there. But yeah, I mean if you're justtrying to deliver a few photos here and their dropbox or google drive orwhatever work. But you're gonna end up with more errors than I think you endup success rates because that's just for whatever reason. It's like it Anytime you're over like 25 or maybe 50 files, it's like they just can't hangthe download the bit rates, just can't can't hold and your bandwidth just getsucked up and it dies. You know, so for sure. Um Last photography question,what's what's your take on water marks. Ah You want me to be like real candid,can I get like, can I get real blunt? This is average is average. This isunfiltered. Let's go, okay. If I were to go and buy my wife, let'suse it that way. Um You know, pick your designer, I don'tcare. Uh, if I were to go drop 10 grand on some designer dress and it had alogo on it. I would be pissed. Yeah. My, my thought on a watermark isthis if you are so desperate for people to know that you shot that picture, youprobably didn't do a good enough job taking it on the flip side of that. What's that?I said bars. Yeah. So on the flip side...

...of that, if you can take an image thateven if you handed somebody the same light, the same camera, the same setup,the same gear and they couldn't recreate it. They couldn't figure youout. Then there are left asking who the helltook this picture And the best compliment you'll ever get is when yourclient says your name voluntarily. So yeah, don't watermark your stuff man,that stuff's over. Um, I mean, I, we all remember like, you know, I don'tlike the, you know, the remember the hoodies that said gap real big on thefront. That's all I can think about when I see somebody's watermark imagesand I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, you're, you are old navy right now. Like Allright. I'll tell you why I brought that up because I've, uh, let's see like inthe past. You know, I had like friends and things like that. Kids. I went tocollege, just just do some photography for me for, for free because they wantto do it, you get started and things like that. So they put their littlewatermarks, I don't care. But then if I pay somebody, there's no way you'reputting your watermark on my photos. And uh like one guy did, and it waslike, it was even a little one, like in the corner, it was like a huge one. Iwas like, bro, this like, looks terrible. Like, first of all, ingeneral, and I was like, how do we? And I was like, no. And then he was justlike, delete the files are he was like, no, you gotta find those because I justpaid you to do this. Yeah, it's just not that's just not a thing. You know,I mean, I don't be wrong. I love to have the conversation with people toexplain to them the way copyright works, you know, and like how how that type ofstuff happens. So, you know, anybody that pays me like a bridegroom, right?Like Christine and mike, they pay me to come in and shoot this beautifulwedding in uh new york and we go for it, their their wedding photos becausetheir their memories, but they're my intellectual property. They don't ownthose images in any way whatsoever. I allow them to use those images inperpetuity. They can have a blast with them. But legally those are my photos.But what's fascinating to me is like a watermark doesn't make that more legal.like it doesn't, it doesn't change that at all. So my clients all know that I'mlike, hey, here's how this works. I'm gonna give you these files in fullresolution and I'm just gonna ask you like, don't make money on them. Don'tsell your wedding photos to like I stock or something cheesy like that.Just enjoy them. But I'm not gonna put a watermark. It's just a, it's a tackyway. Like I said, it's a it's a desperate way to ask for attention, sodo it. Just do better. Just like, I don't, I don't care about tagging thepeople because honestly, isn't that a better shout out? Like to me, it's tome it's such a good shout out when somebody posts an image and then otherpeople have the opportunity to go over and click my name and be like, oh, thisdude took it as opposed to like, you know, they're looking and they're like,what does that say? But it never fails me in the watermark always has somekind of cheesy camera in it. Like everybody's watermark is like the samedude whose logo has like a camera built into it and, and like, the name of thecompany is like, you know, Eclipse Productions or something, come on, like,just grow up, do do better stuff. That's what I'll say? There you go. Ilike that. Um actually one more photography, but I don't know, did yousee when um, the photographer uh was trying to sue Lebron James for usinghis picture? Yeah, of of Lebron. Yeah. So what what is your what's your takeon that? Uh you know, I I ended up getting intoa relatively similar situation a few years ago, um with a you can't I mean,nobody is as well known as Lebron, but an equally well known uh person um youknow, used used my photos for um for a, like a major tv show. Uh...

And yeah, dude, we lawyered up prettyhard on that one. He didn't have permission to do it. Um And everythingcame out like, well, how did he get the photos, You know, in the first place?Did he steal the photos? And I said, no, I sent them to him. Like, we have, wehave these threads back and forth that say like, hey, I wanted you to seethese, That doesn't mean that I'm giving you like carte blanche to usethem. Um And so yeah, I think, you know, I'm in, we that was uh it never went tocourt. I'll say that because everybody on both ends new. Mhm. What the law is,you know, the law is like, you you have to pay for that stuff andthere isn't a jury on earth that's gonna side with the like, Uber wealthyathlete who just took advantage of, like, the, you know, starving artist,which isn't exactly me, but you know what, I'm like posting it, like post onsocial media that, that's like, uh that's illegal. As you know, if you tagthe photographer, it's not, but if you, if you post an image without giving anykind of photo credit, it actually is because it because it's, you know, it's,it's intellectual property of the person whether or not they pursue thator not. You know, social media is also kind of a weird gray area becausesimply by posting on instagram, you're actually giving instagram rights tothose images as well. Um which is, which is like another really uniquething, but you're sharing rights with them. Um but yeah, I mean, you know,I'm just a, I'm a big believer in that, you know, I was just, but you'll,you'll see this when I finished Christina mike's wedding. Um dude, Iguarantee you're gonna get a link to it. You know, they're gonna pass the linkaround and even though I'm going to send them this long email that sayslike, hey, share it, Have fun. Um, you know, do me a favor. If anybody postsome, please ask them to tag me, people won't or you know, even five years fromnow. They're going to post an anniversary image and they won't andthey'll forget and I'm not going to get bent out of shape about it or be likeweird and passive aggressive, Like we just have more stuff to do, man,there's, there's better work to be done than to spend my life angsty againstthe people that paid me to be there. Yeah, for sure. Are you ready for somefun questions? Let's go. What's fun? All right. What? I know you said yougrew up playing soccer. Uh Do you have a favorite soccer team? Ronaldo? Ohyeah. Ronaldo? The team. Ronaldo is a team. I mean he gets paid more than thewhole team, so yeah. And he should, by the way, I actually am, I'm a reallybig PSG fan. I'm kind of on the fence about this P. S. G. Thing with withmessy. Um I like I like messi don't get me wrong everybody before you likeclimb all over me. Um But I think, I think a lot of men how I think ofLebron, which is like, I'm not a big fan of the brand of Lebron James and Idon't I'm not a huge fan of the brand of messy but but yeah, I'm a big PSGfan man, Neymar and um bop are just crazy. They didn't, I mean it's gonnabe cool to see what they do this year, but I don't think they needed it.You're probably not going to believe me, but since we were just talking aboutlegal and all that P. S. G. Actually Send me a postcard mail in 2012 when Iwas trademark NPG sports because they thought it was confusing the PSG likePGS, but they don't at that time, I don't know if they do they don't needtrademarks in the U. S. So they couldn't do anything anyways and it wasyou nailed it, you stuck it to the man there. So I actually want to find thatpostcard because I think it had because I wanted to post in just because likethe messy thing and they kind of blew up now again. Um But yeah that that wasa weird scenario and I was like confused because it came in like halffrench half in english. You know Is this from Canada? Yeah dude I uh yeah Ilove I really do, I love P. S. G. I love me and you um not a big Liverpoolfan, I just don't love the brand of...

...soccer. Um But as far as likeinternational soccer goes. Um. Yeah dude, gosh I mean do you followthe MLS or? No, no, can I just just be like super blunt? So my so so what doyou think, what do you think the key is for them to like actually get americansto watch mls versus watching Europeans owner like Premier League. That thething is like the Mls has to stop being the place that really famous players goto retire. Um I mean you've got to be able to attract young talent and thereis some like ballistic is a beast. But I mean like there's there's someamerican players that are really well known and they're doing some reallygood things, but I don't think that the culture of mLS soccer like even whenyou, when you see an MLS game, it just, it feels like this weird likebastardized version of soccer. There's like lights and, and like loud musicand all of the like foghorns and it's like, man, is this a DJ Khalid concertor is it, are we going to actually play soccer today? Um, I don't know. Sothat's, that's my two cents. My son, my nine year old plays actually on a clubteam that feeds all the way up to Kansas city sporting. So he plays onone of their down line clubs and that has changed things for me a little bit.Um, I've started watching some some Casey sporting games because it's coolto watch the way like the director of coaching for my son's club is learningfrom all the way from like the, you know, the pro club level down. Yeah, sothat's pretty cool. But yeah, I mean I'm not against mls, it's just, it justfeels, it's kind of like, you know, I know a lot of like avid baseball fansthat wouldn't watch a triple a game to save their life and it's like, it just,that's what it feels like. Like I wouldn't watch it on tv, but I would goin person. Yeah. Yes dude, absolutely go have a beer and cheer for soccerplayers. You guys, you guys definitely have tohave some minor league team, but you guys don't have any proteins right,Arkansas. No, no, no majors. We've got we've got a couple pretty close to here.There's a um there's actually a local minor league team, the naturals thatthat feed the Royals um and so they're kind of a part of that and they're funto watch. Um I mean I love man uh he grew up a big Yankees fans so um youknow Jeter got inducted yesterday. I know I'm thank goodness man. Like likeJordan was was sick, huge moment, huge moment in sports justall the way around. Can I ask really quick though because because you'reyou're in this space, why why why is the PSG jersey Jordan? What what onearth does Jordan have to do with european? Soccer? Can we get there? Uhbecause he's a beast. I mean yeah, I'm there. I agreed, absolutely agree withyou. I think I have more memes that go back and forth between me and my teamthat have Jordan and then like anything else and almost all of them are makingfun of Lebron. But I mean yeah, so he, I mean he's brand, I mean it's a nascarto, he sponsors Nascar drivers and no, it just feels weird to me why I meanbetter. Jeter was like the, I think Jeter did he get his own logo? No, hedidn't get his own logo. My thing about can go if you have the swing man. Yeah,yeah, yeah. Um, and honestly I could see Jeter getting like he yeah, I meanI was deserves a foot in that space. I think a rod deserves a foot in thatspace as much as Jeter does personally. But sure. But how savage is it that youget to put a basketball logo on? Baseball people like in their sport,baseball people, soccer people. Nascar like it's so random. That's what I'msaying. I just think it's weird. The other reason I ask, I just bought myson the like $140 messi jersey for a nine year old. Which is absurd by theway. But it's just, it's weird to me that like the home jersey is Jordan andthe away jersey is Nike, but the away...

...jersey has pink on it so he wouldn't becaught dead wearing it even though I think it's really dope. Yeah. No, Idon't, I don't know exact reason I have to look it up. But last last question,what I know you said, I think you shot 42 or 43 states or something. What whatstate, what are the states that you have in? Which one? Like do you reallywant to go to? And then what's like your a country that you haven't shot inthat you want to shoot man. I haven't shot in like like Montana Wyoming kindof that corner of things probably dope because they got right like settingsand exactly like somebody that's listening to this. Take me, can youwant to go first? I don't know if that's the greatest recommendationright now, but that's fine. Oh yeah, that's how, that's how this, by the way,that's how this podcast all got started when you said, you know, when's thelast time NElly had a better album than Kanye? And then I wanted to see whatyou, I said, oh why what do you think of the nelly album? Because I wanted tosee because NEllie is my favorite and then you're Yeah, he crushed it man, hecrushed it in country to alongside some of the bigger names in country and bythe way, if I can just go on the record and say the actual answer to when wasthe last time nelly had a better album than Kanye has been. Every single nellyalbum except for college dropout. Uh Like Kanye was, Kanye is a one hitwonder the only reason any of us know how good Kanye is is because he tellsus like anyway that's my two cents but it's adream dream country to shoot him uh Thailand Norway uh New Zealand yeah, those, those three would be wouldbe right at the top Norway. I've got um I've got a couple that has like claimedNorway but we were supposed to go there last year and uh and Covid hit and itjust hasn't bounced back enough yet. Like those, those countries are stillkind of struggling their way through how travel works and whether or notthings are efficient and so, um, but man, a killer wedding in Thailand wouldbe unreal, but it would, it would require the right couple and not somelike weird sweaty dude that is going to be like gross and nasty right off bythe way. That is me. Just so we can be clear, but I don't have to be in frontof the camera. Yeah, for sure. I need like a skinny hipster kid to go toThailand. All right, well I appreciate you coming.And could you let the listeners know where you can follow you at? Uh, yeah,dude, thank you. Um, I appreciate the invite. Honestly, this is cool. Theonly podcast I'm ever on or like super nerdy photography podcasts and I justwant to talk about my lighting kits and stuff like that. So it's cool to chatwith somebody about sports and more real stuff. Uh, my name is Miles withBoyer to tease and dude, at, at Miles with Boyer on literally everything orjust google that and it'll, uh, it'll get you two pages and pages and pagesof ways to get in contact with me and I actually forgot to ask you, I've beenseeing your, I don't know if you're deciding to start a podcast or doing itand you're just teasing everybody. So tell me, tell the latter, Tell me aboutthat. The last thing. The latter. Uh Yeah, dude, so I mean this is, it'sbeen kinda in the making for a while, so um I actually was a part of one fora while um with a couple of other pretty well known photographers but theproblem was that trying to get all four of us, it was like a, it was like anaround the, around the horn type concept and it was just way too hard toschedule. It was super dope when it worked, but it's just way too hard toschedule it. So yeah, so um my, one of the guys that works for me Jared isthis brilliant sound engineer. The guys just, he's a freak and Um so he and Ihave decided uh that it's that it's kind of go time. So it's a really shortshort hitting like 12-15 minute, quickly digestible concepts for forpeople up living up leveling their their photography careers. So yeah,super easy. I don't know, I don't want...

...to be an entertainer man, I don't havetime for it. So I'll leave that to you, you and your dope groomsmen speeches. Ithink it was my selling those, this is my, this is my side gig. Yeah, hustle.I think you should start selling your groomsmen speeches alright. Them belike yours up short and suite rooms, groomsmen speeches by paul that it wasyour delivery. That was so good man. Don't even don't even write them just Ineed pictures because then they're just going to be fired and I'm just gonnajust like this is the best speech of my life. That's it. But just pre recordthem and then and then just ask the guy like the groom to the groomsmen to justlike hold a little recorder up to the mic and then yeah, I think the big guy.Well again I appreciate it and uh it was great to meet you and I'll let youknow when this releases and yeah, let me know man. I appreciate it. Have agood day. All right. This episode has been brought to you by B. Usr dot com.Go check it out to get your free $100 bet when you deposit a $100 at B. U. S.R. Dot com slash paul. Okay. Mhm. Yeah.

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